This article has 10 comments.

1. carlo
   27 Aug 06
   16:13

   Well Bravi Bis.
   And I thought it was based on a SINDACATI with intra NEWSPAPERS BANKS Magistracy and large industry.
2. Matte
   28 Aug 06
   00:06

   The problem is that many young ciellini (fortunately not all from personal experience ...) is missing a critical and constructive.
   I was impressed (negatively) the reaction to the words of Berlusconi: Italy for me (and any other civilian democracy) must be multi-ethnic ... should not be "just" Catholic (or any other label, the letter A of "atheist" the letter Z for "zapateriana).
   For me it is more an Italian (if you can measure this, of course) an immigrant black (or yellow or white or blue to yellow stripes) made in good standing who is trying to work honestly and paying taxes rather to an Italian for 15 generations that does not pay the rent and that RAI Condoni on Condoni.
   Being Italian is not a factor in the birth (to me) ... what happened in the Middle Ages ... for me the Italian is a strictly cultural.
   If this many ciellini (or at least those who have fainted and applauded Berlusconi) does not understand this ... well .... to me indicates a lack of a strong opinion own (translate as "pack of pecoroni).

   Returning to the Meeting: it is obvious that everything revolves around money: he does and the Vatican, which invests in stock market and buying / selling works of art (there was a bell'articolo on the Press on a month ago) and it is obvious that you are right. Unfortunate that the meeting is an excellent opportunity to get votes, to make propaganda, and we are (I think) very far from the original message of Giuss: according to all VIP ranging in Rimini, CL is the TOP of the TOP (there was also a VIP-me-not remember who said you want a boyfriend ciellino). For me it is a great bullshit (most people believe that each group) and many messages (type qquelli Berlusconi on integration) are very far from those of Don Giussani.
3. carlo
   28 Aug 06
   14:22

   @ Matte
   You are certainly right: Many ciellini are pecoroni.
   also say that in the world pecoroni (ciellini, comrades, Focolare, pacifists, feminists, neocon, etc.) are many and are everywhere - so we give a further tribute to the truth.

   I would like to correct about one thing: Berlusconi made a speech basically insulso. It 'been applauded as Berlusconi. Beyond what is and what it would and has said. Not all those who applauded, however, must necessarily be considered pecoroni, especially if you also accept the incontrovertible fact that people like him (not to say 50% of Italians, at least to a significant slice).

   As for the thought of ciellini in terms of immigration and citizenship, ever thought that only ciellino we can talk, if there is a concept that in the meetings devoted to this issue is found (and certainly has been applauded) is that for which for Italians it is not necessary to be born in Italy (neither positive nor negative), and accept, dare I say "love", the culture, traditions, law and order in Italy. Exactly as you say. If you trust, there I was here. They said Formigoni, Madge Allam, Oded Ben Hur, Joseph Weiler, mario mauro etc ... all friends of cl much more than it is the berlusca.

   Now, with a 'presumption - in the sense that I do not know if you are ciellini or perhaps not even Catholic but I suspect not - I ask myself why a ciellino not feel obliged to say to ciellini as ciellini be? What do you know of a non ciellino Gius? Gius of those books you read?

   Why the celebration of the Bologna stand next to St. precarious and sell raw oysters? Fatigue ï companions not you reach the end of the month?

   What then, and I still forgive me if I show coll'andare forward a rancorous, you've discovered that everything revolves around money just now ...
4. Al
   28 Aug 06
   19:07

   Cl is not an open and democratic movement.
   Does not permit the discussion and comparison.
   Just seeing those invited to the meeting are all people of the Catholic world.
   Go to them and say ciellini exactly what they want to hear.
   Nothing ninete discussions and comparisons with those who think differently from what their world.

   Then all strongly aligned to the right enough to see that people like Formigoni politic or Buttiglione come from CL.
   Just to have candidates on the left as it did in the Binetti Margherita to be booed by civilizing the people who screamed so disinclined Civil Sold "," Judas "despite Binetti has cmq world views Catto-clerical (as in no pacs, no to research on cells stamnali etc ...).
5. Al
   28 Aug 06
   19:23

   Berlusconi said that "Italy Italy must be Catholic."

   Apparently you forget that we are a secular state and non-Catholic or confessional.

   This says our own Constitution, then the sentence is first of all unconstitutional.

   He also recalls the supreme constitutional body that is the Constitutional Court in a ruling No 203 of 12 April 1989:

   "The values cited by Arts. 2, 3, 7, 8, 19 and 20 of the Constitution help to structure the supreme principle of secularity of the state, which is one of the profiles of the form outlined in the State Constitution of the Republic. "
6. Matte
   28 Aug 06
   19:51

   @ Carlo

   I read a few books Giuss and the idea that I have done his thoughts were with some friends ciellini (which were not and are not pecoroni). I had gone to the meeting in Rimini 2 years ago, where I saw many video editions of the past and I saw that in Rimini came with the characters contropalle I noticed that in the last two editions (aihmé I have seen only from the media) there was a strong political presence, which, in my opinion, it is good if it was constructive, it's a bad thing if it were (as is) only pure propaganda and does not provide anything constructive (like Berlusconi's words).

   To the applause: "I applaud if I agree with those who spoke, as I shut up (and not whistle) if I do not agree. Berlusconi has a strong support from CL (experience), which personally I am surprised a little 'for many of his sentences, actions and political alliances. If Berlusconi is the crowd applauded and there for him ... well ... I assume that is loved by those who at least was in the room ...

   For my belief: I was close to ciellini for 2 years and am a Christian but I am not Catholic. I have an idea of God much more "Protestant", in particular valdese (women pastors, direct dialogue with God, etc.). But they are still in research. I also regret deluderti but not a communist

   @ AL

   you may be right in part. CL is a religious movement that has been secularized and then took a strong political and economic power. There are very smart people (Formigoni) and others who make me laugh (Buttiglione type), but a good slice of the base is a flock of pecoroni without a personal opinion.
   I have noticed the exercises: the analysis and remarks were led and if someone happened was that some questions' "heretical" (type "and if I do good without believing in Christ?" Or something similar), I felt between those close to me their comments are not "tolerant" and "cool" (sigh).
   But there is another piece that is really smart and respect ... and that becomes the butt of four for its own ideas and is ready to dialogue.

   Unfortunately, most or semi Just try to discuss the pacs, on gay (often labeled as "sick" and "cure") and on embryo research (the ethical issues in short): except in rare cases, starting in fourth with many prejudices and using as a source for their arguments, only material taken into religious or close to it.

   For the constitution: it can not pleasure or leisure, but Italy is a secular country, the Catholic religion has a strong bearing on political life and this affects the law and in parliament. If you have not yet discovered ... ..
7. Al
   28 Aug 06
   20:32

   -I do not doubt that someone in the leg but there is a majority of people CL is very little dialogue, but who knows only submit to the thought of the Vatican hierarchy.
   The political and economic power is merely a suggestion of movement in the ganglia of society seeking to impose its values.
   Thus mixing religion with politics to economic interests.
   Going against the secular principle in the Bible: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's date to God what is God who" clearly God with this expression has distinguished politicians from that of faith and religion, politics and government with the state laws are one thing, the religion and faith that should not be another mixed.
   Cl goes against this principle with a movement that mixes religion trying to impose it by politics and also in the meanders.

   -L 'Italy is a secular country that you like it or not.
   Is written in our constitution and our own Constitutional Court.
   For example, the statute specifically albertino wrote that Italy is a Catholic nsotra current constitution instead writes that it is a secular state.
   Something that could be a majority of the population to the Catholic faith is another matter but the state itself is secular.
   Even as a Catholic layman may in fact be in Italy when he had to vote for the divorce and abortion even if the majority of the population was Catholic took decisions lay.
8. Matte
   28 Aug 06
   20:58

   I rather think that Italy is on the card is a secular state, but in reality is not. We see the relationship between Ruini and many politicians. The Church has every right (indeed ... it is his job) to express their own views on many ethical, but if it starts to threaten to excommunicate, not to vote for politicians in favor of abortion, to campaigns of disinformation, etc. ...

   For "only thinking of submitting to the Vatican hierarchy" ... is something that I had already noticed long ago (read my post sull'indulto) but not part of ciellini only, but of Catholics in general. Protestants have a direct dialogue with God and no confession (I must confess before God, not through a third person), while the Catholics is the exact opposite: the true needs of a third person (the priest) to confess and has a much more passive than the Protestant ..
9. Al
   29 Aug 06
   04:09

   But Catholics are far more respect to hierarchies.

   Even if we have the structure of the Catholic Church with Valdese.

   The Catholic Church has a hierarchical structure of the mold monarchy with a pope at the summit that governs and appointments.
   Then over to the pope, there are cardinal bishops and priests a top structure.

   Waldensian church has a mold of a parliamentary assembly of pastors who appoint an executive of 7 people.
   Besides the pastors there are no other charges and these are on an equal footing with other believers quasiasi have only studied theology and will take the commitment to say, however, can be made to marry and are equal in every other believers.
   As the shepherd is the same as any other believer has no particular ability to get in touch with God and our relationship with God is direct, without the middleman.

   Even from the perspective of the so-called ethical issues, the Church is very open Valdese than Catholic.
   Respects the choices of the state and does not seek to influence.

   'The ethical and bioethical choices of every individual believer is based on his conscience and his sense of responsibility "said Monica Fabbri, biologist and member of the Commission of Valdese Table for ethical problems.

   the same Valdesi criticize the interference of the Catholic Church.
   the moderator Maria Bonafede, leading the Waldensian church, some interference of the Catholic hierarchy in public life is inappropriate. " And the moderator of the list without hesitation, the 'interference': the referendum on assisted procreation, the family "to a speech given ideological, no to the Pacs.

   Do not judge and does not discriminate on how the Bible says.
   Maria Bonafede: "For Valdesi and now the rejection of discrimination and 'an essential aspect of their Christian calling."

   They, the Waldenses, who want the state doing its job and among the "occupations" of the State there is also regulate abortion, and to ensure assistance to women, and that there are no new prohibitions. This does not mean they support abortion, but simply leaving to Caesar what is Caesar's, and think about God

   Also on pacs are wide open:
   "They are not obligatory mica PACS, are not imposed on anyone. Do not remove anything to marriage, which is certainly a very important institution of civil society. " This hot remarks of the newly elected moderator of Tavola Valdese, the pastora Maria Bonafede, the attitude of the Italian Bishops' Conference (CEI) on the unions. "I have accepted the proposal of the PACS as a proposal of civilizations and focus on real life of citizens in Italy. There are people who live together for many years and is accompanied in life by sharing burdens and joys and supporting each other. Not everyone has the opportunity in their lives and for different reasons, to a family known as' traditional ', but in our society many have found a way to go in the difficult adventure of life. " Maria Bonafede then asks: "Why are those who share life with another person can not have the joy of knowing that his pension will be reversible, that the rent they pay will be kept together by the person who lives with them the day there were no more? ". The can therefore hard to understand the" aggressive "and that he remains an" undue interference ", the Roman hierarchy, and in particular Cardinal Ruini in the life of the Italian State.

   Also on homosexuality are open.
   Start at some points. The first concerns the fundamental commandment that proclaims the Gospel: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Another stressed that the New Testament message is addressed to any person and does not discriminate, either ghettoising the countryside. These are the people who build their differences and soon after the ghettos, but certainly not God In essence, the church is called to announce the grace of God to every human being regardless of race, class, sex or heterosexual or homosexual orientation. The love of God is inclusive, not intended to create groups of elected or seven but to save humanity ".
   Ken Britsch, a member of the consistory valdese said: "We can talk about the condition of homosexuals without being immediately labeled as sick people who must be treated. O unrepentant sinners. But to be honest we are all sinners and for this the grace of God we need it all. "

   So now you see the difference in approach between the conservative Catholic church over other churches much more open and modern as the Waldensians.
10. Matte
    29 Aug 06
    09:33

    (unfortunately) share everything. If the Church Valdese was the main church (and not a small minority), this rule would be very different (better).